|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
   |
Posted - 2008.12.26 16:38:00 -
[1]
ok having read half the post just 2 things
1 Triage sucks balls unless you have a POS you are desperate to save and are willing to throw away a few carriers.
2 Nid/Thanny tank equally as badly the nids bonus only works in its favour if every carrier in the gang is nidhoggurs so they all get the RR boost and help eachother more on top of that a chimera or archon still benifits more from their bonuses because their resistances have the same effect as having a repping bonus (from the perspective of being repped) but those resistance bonuses also add to the EHP and the personal tank of the carrier in question on top of that archon/chimera have the ability to fit more tanking mods than the other 2 carriers giving them even more of an advantage if you dont want a stable tank.
3. Someone mentioned the RR bonus makes the nid use more cap/s: WRONG then changed it so its a rep ammount bonus not the old rep time bonus which did used to make it eat more cap/s.
4. THE NAGLFAR it is broken pure and simple for a start because of its extra high slot it has one less utility slot (mids/lows) however this is silly the extra high slot gives it no benifits due to the split weapons system and low intial DPS of cit torps/capital projectiles and also as a consiquence of the split weapons the extreem difficulty to fit any damage mods effectively, mean that the moros or revelation can do double the DPS of the nag (and thats not just EFT theory thats from use ingame of all those ships) the phoenix amittedly suffers simmilarly low dps but can fit damage mods to compensate plus the second part is important. Due to the high CPU usage of the citadel torp launchers and having 2 launchers + two turrets really takes away alot of the CPU, however the moros, which yes uses hybrids which in turn are some what CPU intensive but in the end 3 of which equal the CPU of 2 launchers + 1 equivalent range gun, has 50 more CPU than the naglfar ok yes it has 1 more mid/low slot but that should take around 20-40 CPU fitting an equivalent set of guns on a nag uses 80 more CPU exactly for both sets so in reality the nag should have 40-60 MORE CPU than the moros. Iknow this is rambling but this leads me to my final point on this ship and the reason the phoenix in smaller groups (it probs needs a buff too tbh) is redeemed slightly: Capital shield tanks in siege, capital shield tanks are better than armor tanks for personal tanks be it sustanable or burst and in siege mode the diffrence is emphasised the phoenix can fit one, so can the moros, the naglfar cant (which considering minmatar capitals were intially meant to be able to field shield tanks is silly) even with CPU implants you can just about fit one if you spend 600mil on faction hardeners.
So basically the nag does suck yes it looks nice and diffrent but it needs an extra mid slot and more CPU or to be switched to a pure projectile boat with 3 turret hard points and 4 total high slots.
Also the TCF guy mentioned minmatar ships being best in 7 classes including destroyer, command ships and T1 frigs, T1 cruisers
destroyers no one uses
command ships well post nano nerf clamore is only slightly better than the EOS but much much worse than vulture/damnation. The sleipnir has never really matched up toe to toe abso/astarte or even the nighthawk (but thats a bit diffrent from them all) and post QR it loses its one advantage of speed
frigates are debatable and not that regularly used tho rifter admittedly is pretty good the punisher is probably better with lasers or autocannons and you were talking the best not just good.
cruisers again rupture is pretty good but thorax or vexor even is better stabber is fairly unique however other ships are just better and again post speed nerf its not astounding.
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
|
Posted - 2008.12.26 16:45:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: ebonyivory
crap hacs
crap capitals
crapish battleships
artillery sucks
split weapons suck
Tell you what, I'll lobby with you to have all Minmatar artie and split weapon ships converted into fully fledged and wtfpwning missile ships?
Actually at one stage i proposed a typhoon with 6-7 high slots and adding an extra mid slot for the lost high 5 missile launcher hard points no turret hardpoints keeping the current 5% ROF missile bonus but making it for torps only then making its second bonus a target painter bonus similar to vigil/bellicose and T2 variants making it an armor tanking drone/torp boat (not something eve actually has) due to the lack of a missile range bonus it would be forced to get in close and would making good use of the minmatar EW for once. Unfortunately my dream was never accepted.
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
|
Posted - 2008.12.26 16:50:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Onewingedangel
Split weapons do not suck, hurricane for instance you can put a full rack of arties then 2 assault missile launchers+drones to handle tacklers. You can do the same on the tempest if you so desire. Split weapons offer versatility. Which is the advantage you have when flying minmatar. No other race matches minmatar versatility. That in itself is a great strength.
Since you fly the ships supposedly it is intresting to note you fail to realise that split weapons systems is not really a reference to having a couple of launcher slots its a refrence to having 2 bonuses to diffrent forms of damage. while this is the case on most drone boats too they dont have to worry about having half their slots for one weapon and half for another as they can have normally 80% of their high slots fitted with bonused turrets if they so wish while still also getting the second damage bonus for the drones in their bays. That they choose to fit other things because bonused drones are effective enough is a diffrent matter.
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
|
Posted - 2008.12.26 21:51:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Pohbis
Edited by: Pohbis on 26/12/2008 16:53:02
Originally by: Random Womble
Actually at one stage i proposed a typhoon with 6-7 high slots and adding an extra mid slot for the lost high 5 missile launcher hard points no turret hardpoints keeping the current 5% ROF missile bonus but making it for torps only then making its second bonus a target painter bonus similar to vigil/bellicose and T2 variants making it an armor tanking drone/torp boat (not something eve actually has) due to the lack of a missile range bonus it would be forced to get in close and would making good use of the minmatar EW for once. Unfortunately my dream was never accepted.
Maybe that's because of just replacing its weapon system with missiles only, you tried to piggyback as much as you could on top to make it nber, yes?
An armor tanking torp spewer with RoF & TP bonus, mids free out the whazooo and good dronebay. Yes please, I think we'd all like that.
actually you would only gain 25% DPS over fitting 4 torp launchers and heavy heavy drones now with a typhoon while having a lesser ability to fit nuets the DPS would be less than is possible to achieve now and the range would be 20kms maximum with T1/faction/Rage torps or 30kms maximum with long range torps (which deal considerably less DPS) thats with missile projection and missile bombardment at 5 which is quite skill intensive. A megathron with T2 neutrons and antimatter will get a 9km optimal and 12.5km falloff with sharpshooter 5 and trajectory analysis 5 which are the gunnery skills that equate to missile bombardment/projection. The typhoon would do less DPS and have a similar tank and around same range (mega can shoot further but has the downside that it loses DPS as distance grows and yes i know gallente fight in opt not faloff) the missile range also assumes it exits the ship in the right direction at maximum speed with the opposing ship not moving so real range will be 1km or so less which forces the typhoon to engage at close range.
As for free midslots well by adding one midslot the typhoon would have 5 since you get a target painting bonus and a target painter would be needed to get max damage on even a BS that straight away takes atleast one then since its a close range fit and must get in close you are going to be looking a definitely having an MWD so thats 2 slots gone. Next slot goes to the cap injector you will need it which leaves 2 slots left well first would have to be a disruptor/scram and then second you could have a web or ECCM.
Bear in mind torps suck against smaller ships especially now the typhoons drone bay is not huge you would probably have 5 heavys yes but you also would need 5 lights for smaller ships question is that last 25m3 you go with a spare heavy or a second set of lights...
If you still think it would be overpowered then tell me why most minmatar people actually dislike the idea because they think it would be weaker as the guy said i just think currently its borked yes i have a character that can fly one and i can fit T2 drones (5mil sp) guns(9mil sp minmatar only) or missiles (7mil sp) on it but my opinion still is it need change.
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
|
Posted - 2008.12.27 14:47:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Random Womble on 27/12/2008 14:48:54
Edited by: Random Womble on 27/12/2008 14:48:16
One last note on split weapons the nightmare (and other sansha ships) got changed because it had split weapons and they sucked so CCP revamped it gave it a maruader like bonus and made it unique vs paladin by giving it a shield tank rather than old armor one now nightmare gets classed as an awesome ship. Point is CCP admitted with it that split weapons and split damage bonuses fail yet a while later they still introduced the fleet scythe which again had split weapons is it just me or does that seem a bit illogical. CCP are not really sure what they want to do with minmatar.
And no im not saying make the same changes the nightmare ect had im just saying some changes need to be made.
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
|
Posted - 2008.12.27 22:59:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Random Womble on 27/12/2008 23:03:01
Edited by: Random Womble on 27/12/2008 22:59:43
Originally by: Orakkus
Originally by: ebonyivory
1)the nagl does 75% less damage than a rev and can do mroe dmg with unbonused lasers than arties.....the dual tanking thing makes its tank harder to fit well.
2)the only way to effectively tank a vaga is with speed....you CANT armour tank a vaga and you can barely shield tank it....so any other hac will rip it apart. Plus heavy tacklers are pretty crap when they have no tank to speak of.
3)ill have to go over this repeatedly wont i? what part of artillery is crap are you not quite getting? the impossibly small ammo cap? the fighting in falloff? the measily dps compared to lasers? So thats basically 50% of all the fits you can do for minmatar bses in the broadest terms (sniper or close range)
6)since minmatar rely on speed as an advantage it was the primary form of tanking for lots of their ships....in its nerfed state is doesnt really cut it against other tanks as the speed tanking ships find it hard to fit anything midly bufferish
1. As I mentioned, I still need to do some direct testing on this personally, but my initial thought process on the Naglfar is that if you need to do heavy damage, you shield tank it, and drop alot of Gyros in the lows. If you need a heavy tank on the other hand, you do sacrifice considerable DPS to achieve it, though it is possible to give it a 1.2mil EHP tank on the Naglfar. It just sucks that you have to chose one or the other.
As i posted before the nag cant fit a shield tank it lacks the CPU to do so and thats if you just fill the lows with beta cap power relays (mids 2 invulns 1 capital booster 2 SBA you can change some of those mods around if you want) which use 2.3 (i think) cpu with maxed skills now try replacing that with a 30+ CPU damage mod..... ok so you could fit a co proc but since the nag allready has 1 less mid/low than the other dreads and has to fit both a BCU and a Gyro to get the same percentage (not ammount) damage increase as any other dread that gimps it stupidly 3 mods where every other ship can do it in one.
Read number 4 in my earlier post
|
|
|
| |
|